Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/18/1998 01:35 PM Senate CRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 191 - EXCHANGE OF STATE TIDE AND SUBMERGED LAND CHAIRMAN MACKIE brought SB 191 before the committee as the final order of business. He turned the gavel over to Senator Phillips while he made a presentation on his bill. SENATOR MACKIE, prime sponsor of SB 191, said it was introduced as a companion bill to SB 190 to deal with some of these land issues. He explained that if a municipality needs an area for a watershed to the protect the community's water supply, or for a ferry terminal, or for an airport, etc., the legislation gives DNR the option of exchanging tide and submerged lands for privately owned lands needed by a municipality. He said it is another option that would allow DNR to have a little more flexibility to work with the private landowners to accomplish a public good. Number 508 RICK HARRIS, Senior Vice President, Sealaska Corporation, said approximately 10 percent of the land in Southeast Alaska is in private ownership, but most of that land is disproportionately located in and around the state's municipalities. Frequently, these lands needed by the municipalities for essential municipal services are held in private ownership. Sealaska supports creating a new mechanism that would allow the state to acquire those essential municipal lands and at the same time allow the private landowners to receive some other value that would serve their purposes and needs. Mr. Harris said that under current law, DNR is already authorized to negotiate land exchanges, but these general land exchange statutes are quite discretionary, and there is no vehicle through which either a municipality or another state agency can compel DNR to commit state-owned lands to improve public purposes. Also, the existing law lacks a clear statement of legislative priorities to guide DNR in the types of exchanges which the agency should focus. Concluding, Mr. Harris said Sealaska thinks SB 191 will provide an excellent opportunity to resolve some of the issues dealt with on a daily basis throughout the state. Number 475 Responding to SENATOR PHILLIPS, MR. HARRIS explained Sealaska Corporation owns municipal watersheds in Hydaburg, has selection rights in the municipal watershed of Craig, and owns municipal watersheds in Kake and Hoonah. On three different occasions, Sealaska has attempted to find vehicles to create land exchanges that would allow them to move away from those watersheds and get them back into public ownership, and in all cases, those efforts have been thwarted for a variety of reasons. Number 440 JANE ANGVIK, Division of Land, Department of Natural Resources, testifying via teleconference from Anchorage, said DNR has some significant concerns about SB 191 in general, particularly with the prospect of transferring tidelands to private ownership. The state has a legal responsibility under the public trust doctrine to retain most tidelands and submerged lands. This is because DNR is required, through the public trust doctrine, to manage the shoreline lands for the use and enjoyment of all Alaskans. She pointed out that most other states do not allow private individuals to acquire shore lands, and in the past, many that did so have spent millions of dollars to reacquire these public lands. Ms. Angvik said that while existing statutes allow DNR to transfer tidelands to municipalities, the Legislature specifically prohibited municipalities from selling these lands. She pointed out that in the areas Mr. Harris made reference to, Hydaburg, Craig, Kake, Hoonah, the state has very little land so that the possibility for land exchanges is very slim simply because they don't have anything to exchange. Ms. Angvik said the notion of public trust requires that access to the water, water allocation, and marine activities are protected in perpetuity in order to provide for the common use of the land. Ms. Angvik also expressed concern with the issue of valuing tidelands and trying to ascertain the value of tidelands relative to the value of uplands. This is a challenge because there aren't very many tidelands that have actually been conveyed. Ms. Angvik pointed out that Section 14(c)(3) of Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act provided for local governments to have up to 1,280 acres to use for municipal purposes, so while DNR is very supportive of providing some surety for municipal governments, particularly in Southeast Alaska, to controlling their watersheds for example, they do not believe that conveying the tidelands is the methodology to pursue. Number 364 CHAIRMAN MACKIE pointed out that Section 14(c)(3) applies to village corporations, not regional corporations like Sealaska. The fact is that Sealaska Corporation physically owns the land and the watersheds of those other communities. He questioned how Sealaska is supposed to be compensated or treated fairly in giving up those lands for a public purpose if DNR doesn't have any land to exchange and they are not able to do a land exchange with them. He added that the purpose of SB 191 is to give DNR an option to deal with this issue, an option that they would have available to them in cases that make sense for absolute public need for essential public services. MS. ANGVIK responded that the capacity of DNR to be able to evaluate the public interest and the long-term interests of the state is removed by the legislation and it is a mandatory requirement. While she understands the difficulty associated with community development, in particular Southeast Alaska where the vast majority of the land is owned by the federal government, she doesn't have alternative ways of compensating a private landowner if what they owned is the watershed. DICK MYLIUS, Division of Land, Department of Natural Resources , also pointed out that if DNR transferred title it is no longer land managed by the department, and even though the landowner may currently allow public use or access by the public, once it is their land they can change that policy in the future. In other states the courts have actually gone back and reacquired public trust lands where the public has lost access to the shoreline. Number 301 JOHN JENSEN, Department of Transportation & Public Facilities, said eminent domain proceedings are a tool DOT uses that provides the least cost to the public, and it is most often the most expedient way to acquire lands. CHAIRMAN MACKIE asked Mr. Jensen if he saw this legislation as something positive where DOT wouldn't have to come up with the cash; that by working with the municipality and DNR they exchange some tidelands adjacent to an upland ownership which is all private anyway. MR. JENSEN responded that it may be appropriate in some instances, but he agrees with Ms. Angvik that if the agency is required to do that then it becomes somewhat of an obstacle to development of that particular project. He suggested it should be voluntary between both parties. Number 205 LISA BLACHER, representing the Alaska Conservation Voice, stated their support for the protections in current law that ensure public access to navigable and public waters of the state. They are concerned that the proposed changes in SB 191 will weaken those protections by allowing state tide and submerged lands to become privately owned through land exchanges. Ms. Blacher stated that the Alaska Conservation Voice's concern is with access because right now Alaska does have public access to all of these state tide and submerged lands. At the very least, they would like the bill to limit the transfer of state tide and submerged lands within municipal boundaries so as to not open up the entire state for that type of transfer opportunity. There being no further testimony on SB 191, CHAIRMAN MACKIE said it was his intention to move the bill on to the Resources Committee. SENATOR DONLEY moved SB 191 and the accompanying fiscal note be passed out of committee with individual recommendations. Hearing no objection, it was so ordered.
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